Thursday, March 20, 2008

Take it all, Bitch


As you might imagine, What It Is We Do can be a bewildering concept for both kinky and vanilla feminists alike. Hell, it's a bewildering concept for us feminists who engage in it, as the epic thread that followed my post from a little over a year ago at the Punishment Book can attest. In her article, "Slap Happy," in this month's issue of Bitch Magazine (Spring, No. 39) author Jessica Wakeman doesn't necessarily provide any answers to make it less bewildering, but she does give the reader plenty to think about.

I think it's important to remember that she walks several fine lines among word limit and the need to contextualize, describing who we are and what we do -- and what we think about what we do, and how the whole thing relates to the issues of female choice and empowerment to an audience of women who may or may not be sex-positive and know absolutely nothing about domestic discipline. In dealing with all this, she makes points and asks questions that were very thoughtful, if somewhat provocative at times. And, yes, despite walking all these fine lines, there are elements she gets wrong too.

Wakeman's thesis is that domestic discipline is a method that some couples use to make their relationships work. A lifestyle that can provide a certain yin and yang that is missing in the contemporary male-female relationship. She quotes at length family historian Stephanie Coontz, who talks about how marriage has changed more in the last 35 years than in the last several thousand and how couples are finding new ways of "doing" a relationship. And couples have more choice about how to do that relationship than ever before, including consciously utilizing domestic discipline.

In the process of explaining this novel-but-not-novel way to do a relationship, Wakeman tries to contextualize DD within the recent history of feminism and the much longer history of male dominance and female submission.
"If an imbalance of power, based on centuries of socialization, is bubbling just below the surface of a relationship, some couples deal with the conflict by establishing some boundaries and choosing to accept then."
This was sort of an inversion of how the writer of the blog Whatever she says describes their relationship: "Most women are the 'boss' of their marriage. The only difference is that I've admitted it and she has acknowledged it." It seems fair to say that DD is a way of acknowledging that we're not all the same. Some have different strengths and weaknesses and we've simply negotiated those differences in power in ways that work for us rather than let them fester below the surface and cause problems with the relationship -- a marked departure from the past where gender roles were fixed and there was no negotiation.

In looking at the rhetoric of blogs like Loving Domestic Discipline, Wakeman rightly acknowledges that "taken at face value, domestic discipline reeks of feminist backlash." Female dominance -- even equality -- is a scary prospect for a lot of men (and women) and there are indeed those who utilize DD in an effort to get women back into a traditional, feminine submissive role. Let's face it, to newcomers looking at the endless blogs and Yahoo groups on domestic discipline, most seem to revolve around women who are bitchy, get into fights with their husbands, get super-bitchy, get spanked by their husbands, then everything is better without ever looking at why she's bitchy or that she may well have some damn good reasons to be bitchy. Not to mention all those spanking stories where the woman is strong-willed, irrational, stubborn, and irresponsible. They reinforce the notion that the emotions of women require the management of stable, reasonable men.

On the other hand, while second wave feminism made great strides in demonizing domestic abuse, "the resulting taboo," says Wakeman, "pushes couples in DD relationships into the closet." Along with a brilliant quote from Mija about how "there's nothing feminist about sublimating your desires because society says you shouldn't have them," Wakeman subtly reproves her audience for creating an environment that is hostile to the choices some women make about what to do with their bodies.

While trying to address the question that many non-kinksters have regarding the relationship between childhood abuse and spanking, Wakeman makes it clear that "for DD women, there's no readily apparent thread connecting actual childhood discipline with their current lifestyle." And she does a good job of placing DD squarely within the spanking fetish by noting that, while not all spankos practice DD, all those who practice domestic discipline are confirmed spankos.. "...[T]he line between spanking intended for a boudoir thrill and spanking as an outside-the-bedroom consequence can be blurry..." Indeed, as I have argued in the past, punishment and DD are really just sub-fetishes within the larger fetish of erotic spanking.

Wakeman's most interesting and challenging question in this article was asking how much of our yearning for discipline is about a strong societal norm for female perfection.

"Their fallibility frustrates and overwhelms them...Many American women strongly feel the drive to be perfect: to be educated, to be a breadwinner, to be a good mother, to be a good wife, and to be beautiful to boot. Is it possible some women -- whether kinkily inclined, formerly abused, neither, or both -- turn to domestic discipline the same way others find solace in punishing behaviors like eating disorders, cutting, or obsessively working out?"

Ouch. I can't answer "no" right away. I found the timing eerie, reading this a week after writing my own post on my obsession with perfection (though I failed to include a gender element in my discussion). And it's certainly been a topic of mine at the Punishment Book. Indeed, when I first started acknowledging I had this preoccupation with spanking and punishment, I couldn't help but wonder if perhaps it was a variation on cutting. While most of me says it's not -- as I say in the article, my sexuality expresses itself as a child who gets off on shame and punishment -- if I'm being brutally honest, there's a part of me that can't say definitively no, it's not at all about my inability to deal with my own fallibility. I have a hard time accepting the fact that I'm finite, and I have most certainly been guilty of using spanking as a means of trying to attain that ever impossible perfection.

Now, like many of you, my first reaction to this article was heavily influenced by my disagreements with it, as well as being rather chagrined that I was introduced in the article as the one who self-spanks over the phone with her boyfriend. It's embarrassing enough having to admit that to fellow spankos, but to be introduced to the feminist world like that was a bit...er, uncomfortable.

The first issue involves a little linguistic nitpicking.

"Mija and Natty control the nature of their DD relationships with a power referred to in the BDSM community as 'topping from the bottom'. In such situations it's the submissive partner who's actually in control; the 'top' is required to have permission from the bottom before inflicting any BDSM action."

I would not consider what I do as topping from the bottom. That is really a form of manipulating the top to do what you want her/him to do -- not that I haven't had my moments. Oh, I hope you don't spank me with the belt! That, my friends, is topping from the bottom, though it's brazen enough that A. generally knows I'm trying to get him to do something very specific. However, because he's the top, he controls whether or not he's going to go on to spank me with the belt. Thus, I maintain my status as bottom and he as top.

Negotiating the framework of our disciplinary relationship, with me having a say in how it will proceed doesn't strike me as topping from the bottom; it's simply negotiation. Once we have negotiated what we want to do, A. then decides how to execute the framework we've both decided upon and I submit to those decisions, save for a safeword or phrase that might stop everything until we can decide what's wrong and where to proceed from there. Basically, the same as in any sort of BDSM safe-sane-consensual scene.

But, of course, the main point of disagreement was on the issue of gender and DD. About half way into the article, in parentheses, Wakeman states:

"Theoretically, a man can be the submissive in a heterosexual domestic discipline relationship, and a DD relationship can be same-sex, but based on both Internet presence and the couples that I interviewed, it's far more common to find heterosexual, female-submissive practitioners."

In the year since I was interviewed for this article, A. and I have started switching more regularly.  It is true that we don't switch in terms of discipline but it has little to do with gender; I'm the one who gets off on it and finds it more effective (my musings as to why are here). However, as I've started topping more, I've started seeking out more F/M blogs and am realizing there are a lot more than I realized when I was primarily a bottom.

As A. and I talked about this article, we both agreed this was the one point where we thought Wakeman got it wrong. He suggested that there are a lot more men in DD relationships than are reflected online because men are less inclined to blog about their activities (as, apparently are female tops). It's true too that F/M couples don't use Yahoo groups to quite the extent that M/F do, though to be sure, there are quite a number of disciplinary F/M Yahoo groups. It does have me wondering what is different about F/M domestic discipline that it doesn't express itself online in the same way that M/F does (pictures -- it's more visually oriented is my first thought). Men do not seem to be articulating submissiveness, nor are women articulating dominance in the same ways and in the same amounts as submissive women. Is there still a strong societal standard against men expressing submissiveness and women domestic dominance?

A. also believes that a lot of men are simply going to dominatrices when they can't get what they want from their partners. A frequent commenter here, Indiana, asked in an email, "Is it true that societal forces make it more likely that a woman will consent to spanking than a man?" I would argue that I think the societal force is more along the lines of making woman feel less comfortable dominating (or rather, our form of domination has traditionally been in manipulation rather than in blunt force) so that it is very difficult for submissive men to find a partner willing to provide the strong female hand they need and desire. It's a lot easier to slip back into traditional roles than chip away at new, less comfortable ones.

While, yes, it's true there isn't as much of a same-sex presence online (though it is there), that reflects the fact that heterosexuality is the norm. Out of any given population group, same-sex couples are always going to be in the minority (well, you know, except maybe the Castro district in San Francisco) but it was unfortunate that same-sex couples were excluded, as Jigsaw Analogy noted in the comments for the previous post, as it would have demonstrated the problem genderizing this lifestyle entails.

So, yes, I cringed when Ms. Wakeman stated that "The crux of domestic discipline is that women's behavior is inherently rife with transgressions, and the discipline provided by their intimate partner will be a leveling force." The context of this comment is unclear to me. I'm not sure if this was meant to represent the views of Mr. Loving DD and his ilk rather than my or Mija's view. And if it was, I wished that there was more contrast between what Mija and I do, and what MrLovingDD does (that is, if he does it at all or just writes very good "wank material" as one friend has called it). He genders behavior, we do not and I don't think that point is very clear.

If it was meant to truly describe the essence of domestic discipline as practiced by the majority, then I think she (or her editor) missed a very important point. F/M domestic discipline is not a fringe group within DD and making it so within this article marginalizes their sexuality (though there is the point that it is "feminizing" men, which is still a form of female submission in its own way). By insisting on maintaining a gendered perspective on dominance and submission, it keeps women boxed into rigid definitions that ultimately dis-empower women.

However, again I think it's important to keep in mind the audience for whom this article was written: feminist women who may know a little something about erotic spanking but know absolutely nothing about domestic discipline. And it's damn hard to explain it to an outsider. It is impossible for the target audience to look at this completely outside the construct of gender, as much as I think they should. I mean, the relationship that A. and I have -- that all nine of us at the Punishment Book have with our partners -- is not necessarily the norm when you take into consideration DD blogs and groups in their entirety. Would I have liked an article that looked at how some women are practicing DD without the stereotypes? Sure, but first people have to actually know what the hell it is.

I should also note that Ms. Wakeman was under a great deal of pressure to sensationalize this story, (i.e. make this a story that poked fun at us freaks) or simply couldn't sell the story because it was too edgy (and the magazines she pitched it to were hardly the Ladies Home Journal). While we're used to What It Is We Do, most people are not, and I think the compromise she found at Bitch in describing this as a way that women are seeking to "do" a relationship is a reasonable one even if I disagree with the gendered approach.

On Monday when my county-appointed housekeeper arrived to do my laundry, she told me the harrowing tale of how her daughter was beaten by her husband the weekend before. He started to choke her when she refused to give him the car keys because he was drunk, all the while shoving his knee into her three month pregnant belly. For hours after the cops came and dragged him off to jail, they could not get a heartbeat on the fetus. Eventually a heartbeat was heard, though they will not know the extent of any damage until birth. It was a poignant reminder to me that while we have come to a point where I can exercise my right to play with dominance and submission, we have not reached a point where the raw, non-consensual execution of it has ceased. And for a lot of people, it is impossible to divorce one from the other, even if I can.

But it's hard when you're a woman who has done all the things you're supposed to do to be a good feminist to hear someone suggest that you're doing something that puts the whole thing back to the days when the police wouldn't be showing up to take a wife-beater to jail. That you're embracing a construct with thousands of years of misogyny backing it up. I think that's why places like the Punishment Book, This Thing We Do, as well as the increasing number of feminist voices -- female and male -- among the domestic discipline community are so valuable. And why consciously grasping the choice we have to practice What It Is We Do in a non-gendered, mindful way is a profoundly feminist act.

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

What a great post, Natty! I'm still digesting it, and I'll leave a more thought-out comment after I've reread it.

Take care,
Lele

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with Lele here, though I've been so terrible at posting comments lately that I just had to say something now. I could definitely leave a more thoughtful comment if I spent some time deliberating. There was just so much there. However, my instinct is that there just cannot be a single person, no matter how many people they've interviewed or how much research they've done, to define a single definitive perspective on the subject of spanking, DD, BDSM, or any combination or sub-category there-of.

The bit about a parallel to eating disorders and cutting made me tilt my head a bit. It was the, "Oh God, is that what I'm doing?" thought. I've been debating that for at least half my life and over and over again I believe that my interests are a blend of the erotic and the psychological, but not damagingly so in any sense. I think that's a fascinating area of the spanking fetish that isn't touched on very often--we're not actually getting hurt. Yes, we may bruise for days or even weeks. But are we affecting our health? No. For me, it's a combination of sensation and power exchange resulting in a catharsis, a word that Pandora Blake so brilliantly used to describe spanking recently. I tried cutting when I was fifteen and have even had bouts with eating disorders over the years. If anything, spanking has given me pride in my flesh. I don't seek to wound it, decrease it, or change it in any way.

I could have a million and ten things more to say, but I suppose that's what these blogs are for--sorting it all out and sharing it with the world. This was a really fascinating post, and one I am sure I will come back to as I continue to explore and deliberate my own fetish.

Happy weekend!
Abby

Indy said...

I also agree with Lele-- this *is* a great post, one of the most thoughtful and perceptive I've read anywhere. If your brain-fog was still around when you wrote this, I can only stand in awe of what your clear mind would produce. :-)

I’ve re-read Wakeman’s article after reading your comments, and I mostly agree with you. In particular, I take your point that writing about DD at all is a bold step.

However, I take stronger exception than you do to Wakeman’s blurring the distinctions between anti-feminist, fundamentalist DDers on the one hand and people like you and the other the women of PB on the other. I think this failure is purposeful, consciously or unconsciously. You are certainly correct that her categorization of negotiation as “topping from the bottom” was off. But I don’t think you’re engaging in “minor linguistic nitpicking” here. Instead, you are drawing attention to an example of the clear effort Wakeman makes to minimize the power of the submissive woman in the relationship. She does the same thing when she moves from quoting MrLovingDD to quoting Mija, without drawing any explicit contrasts. She’s set up the notion that DDers don’t value women enough, and she uses that to frame Mija’s comments in the same light. The VW ad example reads very differently in the context that women need to be guided than it does in any context I have seen Mija use. Even Mija’s point that sublimating one’s desires to please society is not a feminist goal is buried in the middle of a paragraph-- a paragraph that ends with the parenthetical statement that while it is theoretically possible for DD to occur in same-sex or male-submissive relationships, these are in the minority.

I agree with you and A. that Wakeman is wrong in her assessment that there are so few male bottoms out there. To be fair, this misperception is not entirely her fault-- most blogs by female bottoms are about M/F relationships and the bulk of the commenting readers are in similar relationships. Most of these blogs assume this is the default arrangement, even when they reach out to people in femdom or same-sex relationships. Interestingly enough, the context in which I started to notice the numbers of male bottoms was through discussions about feminism and the sex industry on Pandora Blake's, NIki Flynn's, and Adele Haze's sites. Their fans clearly include a lot of male bottoms.

I also saw the cutting analogy as a way to minimize the power of the submissive. Certainly anyone engaging in behavior that has the potential to cause physical harm should think carefully about whether or not the behavior is self-destructive or unhealthy. However, the analogy to cutting completely overlooks the importance of personal connection in a healthy spanking relationship. All of us need help from others at times in our lives. In a healthy relationship, the partners work to provide perspective and to empower each other. In a less healthy relationship, the partners may seek to tear down the other’s confidence rather than to raise it. Whether or not spanking is involved seems almost incidental to me.

Almost incidental, but not quite. I liked what you had to say and have said before about the blurred lines between erotic and punishment spanking. In my view, having a sexual interest in spanking makes a huge difference when it comes to using it as a punishment. That’s part of the reason it’s so disturbing that Wakeman didn’t distinguish clearly between DDers who believe the natural place of women it to submit to the men in their lives and those who don’t.

I like the point you raised about societal forces making it more difficult for women to dominate than for men to submit. I think that’s true for the latter group of DDers, almost all of whom would self-identify as kinky. But I also agree with the concern you have raised before that the HoH, fundamentalist Christian DD perspective may make consent a lot less clear. This is the way in which I think society makes women more likely to submit than men. I’m sure there are plenty of LDD types in cheerfully kinky relationships who prefer not to think of their activities as kinky. Fine. But I suspect that there are also plenty such relationships in which only one partner or the other is kinky. If the man derives sexual pleasure from administering CP while the woman derives none from receiving it, one has to wonder about consent. On the other hand, if it’s the other way around, perhaps the woman has given up more power in the relationship than she would like just to get her sexual needs met.

In the end, I can’t entirely fault Wakeman for not getting it quite right, as I would have probably come to the same conclusions not that long ago. That’s why I strongly agree that your voice and those of your fellow PB authors are so valuable. Thanks for taking the time to share them so well!

Indiana

Jigsaw Analogy said...

Huh. I thought I remembered commenting on this post, but I guess I just *meant* to comment this morning.

I'm still planning on writing out my own response on my own blog, or the PB, but I'll comment here, since Natty beat me to it.

First, on the whole "mostly M/F" thing: my own experience of that is that there is a degree to which people practicing other versions are specifically excluded from many of the DD sites. The whole reason I started the forum at "This Thing We Do" was that I had signed up on another DD forum (one that seemed less of the "surrendered wife" types), and the moderators specifically requested that I only post in the BDSM section, because they believed that without the M/F dynamic, it was NOT DD. So by presuming it's mostly M/F, and by excluding those who don't fit your perception, you can't see how many couples do NOT fit that dynamic.

(Huh. Now I'm thinking of yet another point where this PSA is applicable.)

And my own experience is telling me that the tension in a DD relationship, and the reasons one would choose to have one, might be in part tied to culturally gendered behavior, but that is not the only thing going on. And as a feminist, it's important to me to challenge the idea that only some behaviors are "acceptable." Plus, I'm obviously *still* a little sour-grapesy over being told my relationship can't be DD simply because it doesn't fit someone else's notion of why they do it. (Not to mention the number of people who have written to me in regard to TTWD saying how glad they are to FINALLY find a place where they feel like they can fit in.)

As for self-harm as it relates to DD desires:

I'm writing this as someone who does/has done both. And there are major differences in *effect* for me, between self-injury and discipline. The way I usually describe it is that self-injurious behaviors tend to make me *more* "tangled up" and discipline makes me *less* tangled up. And it's not just about the gratification of having someone taking care of me. It's that they address a different part of my psyche or something. I mean, even if, on the face of it, the behaviors are the same, it doesn't come from the same place inside my head.

And what Wakeman dismissed as "topping from the bottom" I would describe, in my own relationship, as "communicating effectively and engaging with what it means for the relationship to be consensual."

Yeah, there is topping from the bottom, and I am occasionally guilty of it. But the part where W and I actively discuss what the rules will be, and how they will be enforced, and where I give her feedback on what is working and what isn't? That's being an adult in a consensual relationship. That's practicing good communication. (Which is NOT to say it is the *only* method of any of the above.)

There's more, but really, I've gotta save *something* for my own post! ;P

Destiny and her pet chance said...

Very nice Natty.

Reading this blog with my morning coffee was time well spent.

Destiny

Natty said...

So many very thoughtful, interesting comments!

Lele -- Digest away! I'll be here when you're ready.

Abby -- The connection -- or lack of one -- between cutting/eating disorders and spanking is a fascinating one that I don't think is talked about enough. To be sure, while I fantasized at times about cutting when I was younger, I have never done so so I certainly cannot speak about cutting with any authority(I do have eating issues because I'm fat, i.e. because I'm fat, I was always bullied about food and dabbled here and there with anorexia) . I do know I have used spanking as punishment in unhealthy ways, but like you have found spanking to be a great help in embracing my flesh (see here or here).

Indiana -- Thanks! It was a combination of the fog clearing a little bit and sheer will (though I did sleep most of yesterday afterwards).

Instead, you are drawing attention to an example of the clear effort Wakeman makes to minimize the power of the submissive woman in the relationship. She does the same thing when she moves from quoting MrLovingDD to quoting Mija, without drawing any explicit contrasts.

I'm with you about wishing there could have been a more explicit contrast in that part, though again I'm not sure if she's trying to make the contrast by moving to a new paragraph with Mija and then me or trying to deliberately blur the lines.

From there she goes on to state that "domestic discipline is not control by their husbands, they reason, but control of themselves." What I think she is trying to show is not so much a lack of power on the part of submissive women, but how some women are choosing to embrace traditional gender roles in an attempt to control themselves and deal with the ambiguity of contemporary relationships. I do sense a bit of "have these women so internalized patriarchal oppression that they can't make the right decision?" Yet about the time she does seems to start asking that question, she then reverts back to "hey, if it works for them..." Ultimately, a good feature writer doesn't answer those questions but lets the reader do that.

I also would have liked more contrast in the paragraph following the one where Greta, Mija, and I talk about our struggles with our feminism and DD. Wakeman talks about how a lot of women interviewed worry about sounding like a bitch. Speaking for myself, that's never been a problem in my relationship and I've got question marks all over the margins of that paragraph. If I put it in the context of what I've seen in a lot of other DD sites, then that makes sense, but it's certainly not been a problem in my relationship with A. If she's trying to do a typical "here are the crazies on one side, here are the crazies on the other, here's what's in the middle" sort of story, I readily acknowledge I'm probably not the sort in the middle. I just want it clear that I'm not like the crazies on the other side, ya know?

Indeed, I think it would have been helpful to have an article with more categories -- CDD, non-religious who consciously embrace the traditional gender dynamic, Femdom, and those like us -- who may be hetero or same-sex -- who are trying (or have to) do this without reverting to traditional gender roles. But everybody has their own stylistic ways of doing things. And then there's always the issue of what will actually sell...

Certainly anyone engaging in behavior that has the potential to cause physical harm should think carefully about whether or not the behavior is self-destructive or unhealthy.

Indeed, and I think what was interesting about the question with it's uncomfortable analogy is that I don't think a lot of those into DD think about that question enough. We tend to focus so much on celebrating spanking, DD, D/s, etc. that I don't know if there is a lot of public questioning of what about it is good and what may need some serious reconsideration. I thought it was quite perceptive of her to pick up on the thread that a lot of us are women who push ourselves extremely hard -- dare I say, much like most feminist women, even if we may use an unorthodox means of pushing ourselves harder. Now, let me be clear, I do not believe that what we are doing is analogous to cutting or starving ourselves. But I think in asking those uncomfortable questions, we pause and make sure we aren't, which is a healthy thing. And to be fair, I don't think Wakeman is saying she believes it to be the case, just noting the possibility.

JA -- the moderators specifically requested that I only post in the BDSM section, because they believed that without the M/F dynamic, it was NOT DD.

Both times I read this it made me gasp. (One of the good(?) things about a bad short term memory is that the surprises come again and again...) That's really appalling. I'm really sorry that happened. And I'm glad you started TTWD as it's clearly providing a place for all the other "left out" DDers.

(Huh. Now I'm thinking of yet another point where this PSA is applicable.)

Yes, I think there may be a little bit of only seeing what she was looking for. Though, she did interview you and W. so I think originally she did want to include same-sex couples. But as she wasn't finding many other same-sex couples aside from you and W., it became more "theoretical" and anomalous to her rather than reality. And unfortunately you hadn't started TTWD before she started interviewing -- one of the big reasons I think TTWD is so important. I don't know if the fact that "domestic discipline" isn't part of the name may reduce the connection people will make between it and domestic discipline. I know when I typed "domestic discipline" into Google last night, it didn't come up within the first 200 links. Indeed, there were only three F/M sites in the 200 and no same-sex.

That's being an adult in a consensual relationship. That's practicing good communication.

Yes, I've mentioned a few times at the PB that I think using DD in lieu of good inter-communication skills is troubling to me. I mean, if it works, well, who am I to judge? But I do think at some point some good cognitive behavioral therapy would be more helpful -- and frankly, more liberating -- than spanking. But, you know, that's just me. And you too, apparently. :::grin:::

There's more, but really, I've gotta save *something* for my own post! ;P

I'm looking forward to it very much!

Destiny -- Hey there! You know I was thinking last night a lot about the differences between F/M and M/F domestic discipline. But I know that I don't have much of a F/M audience to have much of discussion. It's so nice to see at least one!

********
I also should note, A. is a journalist and spent a lot of time explaining how things work from that end of the story. Between that and my natural proclivity for playing devil's advocate, it's probably why I've been less upset and more defensive of the article.

oatmeal girl said...

Way too much to think about on a sleepy Sunday.

"there's nothing feminist about sublimating your desires because society says you shouldn't have them" sums up beautifully my attitude towards being a feminist pain slut. Thanks for that.

I was struck by your discussion of topping from the bottom. I will periodically draw the philosopher's attention to a particularly um... striking story on someone else's blog, or share with him a wicked fantasy that has popped into my head. While I can't deny that this is done with the hope that he will incorporate the scenario or method of punishment into our own mainly long-distance interactions, a major goal is to fulfill my responsibility to bring him pleasure. Not only do I excite his libido, but I also give him another tool to control me, scare me, and keep me off-kilter, all of which delight him enormously.

Underpinning all this is my core belief about any sort of BDSM relationship: that first and foremost it IS in fact a relationship. It involves two (or more) people and they all have a vital part in determining how it will operate - even if that is not always completely evident.

I hope this makes some sense - my brain is only half here today...

Natty said...

Heya Oatmeal Girl -- nice to see you!

It IS a lot -- a super long post and my wordy comments to boot! ;-)

I was struck by your discussion of topping from the bottom...

Again, I think what you describe is the natural negotiation or the normal back and forth of a couple sharing with each other their vision of what is erotic -- a very healthy thing in any relationship. When I think of topping from the bottom, I think of, say, excessively bratting when the top isn't interested in spanking to get him or her so pissed he or she hauls off and beats the submissive (the bad sort of topping from the bottom), or making certain that particular implements are within reach of the top and saying something like "oh I hope you don't spank me with (blank)!" (the good kind -- or at least ambivalent sort -- of TFTB).

It involves two (or more) people and they all have a vital part in determining how it will operate - even if that is not always completely evident.

Exactly.

And you've made perfect sense. :-)

Anonymous said...

There is just so much here to comment on, Natty. I would read a paragraph, and think of something I wanted to say, then the same thing with the next paragraph... and in the end, the other commentators have made excellent points as well.

I guess the line that will stay with me is:

"But it's hard when you're a woman who has done all the things you're supposed to do to be a good feminist to hear someone suggest that you're doing something that puts the whole thing back to the days when the police wouldn't be showing up to take a wife-beater to jail."

Amen! This is what tires me the most when I try to be honest about the things I like and the things I do. It seems like we have limited choices still: 1) Go quietly along with the sexist status quo. 2) Go quietly along with the radical feminist expectations. 3) Be eternally criticized for choosing an individual path that makes us happy.

Natty said...

Yeah, I'm kinda thinking now that maybe I should have broken this up into a few posts because for a few days afterwards my brain was spinning with various thoughts I'd have regarding just about every paragraph in the post, as well as quite a few of the comments. Ah well. Plenty of fodder for future posts, I suppose.

Sometimes I get this feeling among "second-wave" feminists that somehow I'm supposed to show my gratitude for all that they suffered by suffering myself. I am grateful that I have (had) the opportunity for a career of my choosing in a workplace in which I am respected. But I'm not going to stifle my sexual expression as a form of gratitude. Rather I'm going to be the person I now have the freedom to be. I mean, that seems like a much better form of gratitude to me, no?

Trinity said...

*wave hello*

I think another part of it is that a lot of F/m is really, really... eh. There are archetypes, but I don't think they speak to many women. I think they tend to be phrased as men's fantasy, so even if a woman has fantasies, she'll often look on the Internet and just go Jesus, EWW!

I mean, such was my reaction to Female Supremacy and such. I'm masculine/butch, so the whole idea that I was supposed to dominate a man through feminine wiles, that masculinity is for the lesser beings... well, what did that make female, butch, dominant me?

I wanted this stuff enough that I went sniffing around for archetypes that made more sense to me, and once I had done that, all was well, and I settled into genderbent honorary-leatherman status and never really looked back.

But I think for a lot of people, it's very daunting. And I think it may be more so with DD -- my images of DD is very fifties, very "strict" in a prim, proper sort of way that doesn't resonate with me. (Well, smoky leather bar and old warehouse probably doesn't resonate with most not-already-queer women either... but my point is that I think a lot of people who have the desires don't key into the archetypes.)

Trinity said...

(Note that I don't mean to say the archetype of DD in my head is the right one, or that DD isn't great for those who it resonates more with. I tried dating someone who was more into that than I was, though, and it really didn't work out. I kept wanting the trappings of SM/leather-as-culture, and he kept wanting a more feminine and more primly strict governess, and dear Goddess did that just not work... :)

(word verification: "kuffm." Sounds fun.)

Natty said...

:::waving to Trinity:::

Hey there!

Your comment about F/M and archetypes is a very interesting one. Definitely as I watch more F/M porn I'm appreciating one, how very cock-centered it is (even if women are being worshiped), and two, particularly in relation to Femdom DD, I think a lot of women already feel like they are their male partner's mother so M/F DD is very liberating in that way. I definitely see how for you the construct would not resonate much. And how clever you are to have gone looking for what would resonate.

But it is indeed daunting. Sometimes I think the archetypes get in the way of embracing our sexual desires. And sometimes it takes a lot of courage just to go sniffing around at all for those archetypes that do resonate.

Trinity said...

"Definitely as I watch more F/M porn I'm appreciating one, how very cock-centered it is (even if women are being worshiped)"

Yeah. I love all the strap-ons, but really, not all the focus on the guy's wang (particularly if it's the humiliation stuff. That thing's a fun toy to play with, and not as fun if it's inferior...)

And, well, for me, being rather mystified about gender for most of my life, and bisexual too, rigid (ahem!) gender-based schemata don't work so well for me either. If Women are worthy of worship by lowly men, and this is some kind of natural feature of reality, what am I doing when I top a woman, or even (gasp!) dominate her? Blasphemy?

"particularly in relation to Femdom DD, I think a lot of women already feel like they are their male partner's mother so M/F DD is very liberating in that way."

Oh, gods, yes. When I tried F/m DD with this one guy -- or at least something that looked a lot more like DD than what I was used to and what I liked; I don't know all that much about how people who know what they're doing do it :) -- that was very much the feeling I got. "I can't keep my life straight! Make rules for me and punish me when I'm bad! Otherwise my ADD will overwhelm me!"

And it was just... totally not-erotic for me at all. I just kept thinking "I don't want a child." I really didn't like it, especially punishments. He wanted this division between "good" spankings and "punishment" spankings, and I tried it just so I'd know whether it worked for me. The answer was no, not at all -- for me, I hit people because I like it. Trying to mesh that together with "I'm disappointed" ended up blurring "I'm excited" and "I'm angry" in my head, and I really didn't think that could end at all well. I didn't like who I thought it might turn me into.

I guess for me -- well, my partner thought that real domination and submission had to have punishment in it. I was very concerned back then about doing D/s "properly" (and also not really being me; I can't help but laugh at how hard I tried to fit a paradigm thar wasn't me at all) and I'd always heard "subs need that" so I tried to do it. But all the D/s I've done since I've not involved it at all... and I don't find, as I used to fear, that this makes people any less serious about submission. If anything the people I find now are more serious, because they want to serve, not want Mom back...